Tempo House

Lyrics

(1)

A serious man
In need of a definitive job
He had drunk too much
Mandrake anthrax (2)
Pro-rae, pro-rae
Oloron  (3)

Tormented tots
With Burton weeping (4)
His idiot contacts
Pro-rae, pro-rae
Pro-rae, pro-rae

Put your claim into Tempo House (5)
Go round there to Tempo House
Go round, have a grouse
Put your claim into Tempo House

Roll their chubby round jowls
Roll the chubby round jowls
And Burton is weeping
His shares are weeping
God damn the pedantic Welsh
Pro-rae, pro-rae
Loron, loron

Put your claim into Tempo House
Put your claim into Tempo House
Go round, have a grouse
Put your claim into Tempo House

Put your claim, put your claim

I'd sing "Solitaire" for the B.E.F. (6)
But who wants to be with them, anyway?
Snow on Easter Sunday
Jesus Christ in reverse (7)
I tell ya, the Dutch are weeping
In four languages at least (8)
Oloron
Pro-rae, pro-rae
Pro-rae, pro-rae

And Burton is weeping

Put your claim into Tempo House
Put your claim into Tempo House
Go round, have a grouse
Put your claim into Tempo House

Put your claim, put your claim, put your claim, put your claim...

Illness, pollution, should be encouraged and let loose
Then maybe some would have a genuine grouse
Spring right out of the fetters
Right away from 6 Green Market Place (9)
Tempo House address
Pro-rae, pro-rae
Oloron

Winston Churchill had a speech imp-p-p-pediment (10)
And look what he did
Erased half of London (11)
And the Dutch are weeping
Lusted after French paintings
Pro-rae, pro-rae
Oloron, oloron

Put your claim into Tempo House
Go round and have a grouse
Go round, have a grouse
Put your claim into Tempo House (12)

 

Notes

1. There is an office building at 15 Falcon Road in Battersea (London) called Tempo House (thanks to Dan and BreconBorn for pointing this out). The building indeed predates the song. Dan: "In the early 1980s, one of the companies based at Tempo House, Falcon Road, was 'Mike Mingard Music Limited.' Mingard seems to have been into music publishing and management," and in fact Dan has discovered that Mingard was apparently Gary Glitter's manager. As Dan goes on to say, "The lyric is not specific, but I think it's probably referring to some music industry organisation or something like that, that at the time was based at Tempo House. But it could be anything."

See also note 5 and More Information below for more on occupants of Tempo House.

Tempo is Italian for "time," and is music terminology for the pace at which something is played.

^

2. Mandrake is a hallucinogenic nightshade, and anthrax is a bacterial disease as well as a short form of the name of the bacteria, Bacillus Anthracis. Methaqualone (Quaaludes) was for a time sold in combination with an anti-histamine under the brand name "Mandrax," which may be what the lyric is alluding to. The song seems to be partially a mockery of people on the dole.  

According to Dan, in 1981, a BBC report by Robert Harris alleged that Winston Churchill (see note 9 below) wanted to use anthrax bombs on Germany.

^

3.  "Prorae" is the form of the Latin for "prow" (as of a ship) and comes from the Greek "proira," to go forth. Pro re nata is a Latin phrase meaning "use as needed," which may refer back to the mandrake/anthrax. "Prora" was a Nazi beach resort, although with the onset of war it was never completed. From the end of the war until 1955 it was a Soviet military base. 

This is all even more of a stretch considering the transcription "Prorae" is speculative and uncertain.

 

There is a town in southern France called Oloron-Sainte-Marie. But some have speculated that MES is actually singing "Lorant" (or "Ah--Lorant"), which is the surname of the Hungarian anti-fascist Stefan Lorant, imprisoned by Hitler in 1933; Lorant was a filmaker and photo-journalist who founded the magzines Lilliput and Picture Post. Gyula Lorant, also Hungarian, was a famous football player. Such theories are bolstered by the fact that the first syllable is sometimes omitted; above, I've rendered this "Loron," but this is very uncertain. 

John Coyle has taken a very impressive whack at it, in any case:

"Oloron" or more accurately Oleron may refer to the protagonist in the classic supernatural story, "The Beckoning Fair One" by Oliver Onions. In this, a writer named Paul Oleron becomes captivated by a mysterious spirit which appears to haunt the house he is renting. He gradually loses touch with reality and appears to kill the woman who loves him. The sort of thing MES would be all over.

Indeed, and Onions (his real name) is a writer of a genre (ghost stories) and era (his work appeared from around 1900 until c.1960) that MES is known to be "all over" as well...

And Dan:

In the twelfth century, Eleanor of Aquitaine (by that time Queen Consort of England) promulgated the Rolls d'Oléron - the Laws of Oléron - among the first maritime laws. Oléron is an island off the coast of France, and was where Eleanor was based at the time.

^

4. Martin reports that on at least one live version, "roughly after the midpoint of the song, MES sings 'Richard Burton is weeping.' I suppose this is fairly convincing evidence that this and no other is the man referred to in the lyrics." Burton is Welsh, and he played WInston Churchill in the TV play The Gathering Storm in 1974. While his jowls (see the next stanza below) were not increased quite to Churchillian proportions for the role, one could at least say they were playing the chubby round jowls of the former P.M. Indeed, the actor's famously chiseled features were make up to look a bit jowly, so I think this is the most likely reference for "Burton" (i.e. the actor, rather than the English explorer) and the jowls; since his features were altered, Burton's jowls would be especially noteworthy. And, as jensotto points out, in the BBC documentary The Valiant Years (1961), excerpts from Chruchill's memoirs were voiced by Burton.

Dan weighs in:

"In November 1974, anticipating the December screening of his Churchill play, Burton attacked Churchill in the New York Times (there were a couple of articles). Burton could be said to be 'pedantic Welsh,' couldn't he, if you disagreed with his assessment of Churchill? He criticises Churchill for his drinking, among other things."

Martin watched The Gathering Storm for us, and his report is in comment 51 below (see also Dan's comment 52).

 

^
 

5. According to David Sharman:

When I worked for BT directory enquires I was amused when a customer rang up to ask for the telephone number for Tempo House in London. When I asked what sort of organisation was working at that address I was told that he wanted to make a complaint about a travel agent as the holiday he had just had was the worst ever. When Mark E. Smith sings 'put your claim into Tempo House, go around and have a grouse, put your claim into Tempo House' I always think now that he is making a complaint about a hotel, travel or something to do with what would be considered a holiday, although it may have something to do with being on tour, which is the more obvious really.

See More Information below.

^
 

6. B.E.F. is "British Expeditionary Force," a former name for the British Army. However, this probably refers to the British Electric Foundation, a band formed by former members of the Human League in 1980. This B.E.F.'s 1982 album B.E.F. Presents Music of Quality and Distinction Volume One featured famous musicians covering songs by other famous musicians, including Manfred Mann singer Paul Jones doing a song the Fall would soon tackle, R. Dean Taylor's "There's a Ghost in My House." "Solitaire," which does not feature on the album, is a Neil Sedaka song made famous by The Carpenters.

The B.E.F. eventually became Heaven 17, and there seems to be an allusion to them also on the (unreleased) studio version of the track... 

 

^
 

7. According to dannyno on the Fall online forum,

The following is from Brian Edge's book, "Paintwork" (pp.76-77):

He voted Conservative at the last election because the local Labour Party's candidate's  antics had incensed him so much. "I used to call him Jesus Christ in Reverse," explained Smith, "because some fascist pinned him up. He had marks on his hands which he used to show everybody. And at Labour meetings he used to stand up, take out this rotting fish and say, 'What about the Grimsby fishermen?'  A complete charlatan."

Dan suggests the candidate in question was Joseph Moon (Labour), who was defeated by the Tory incumbent Alice Maders, although the election was seemingly after the song debuted on April 10, 1982, in the Netherlands. Easter was April 11th that year, and Martin reports that there was a lot of snow in the Netherlands that April.

^


8. Dan points out that this song debuted in the Netherlands (10 April 1982 Paard Van Troje, The Hague, The Netherlands), although it hasn't yet been confirmed whether this line was already in place.
There are indeed four officially recognized languages in the Netherlands (Dutch, English, Frisian, and Papiamento) and several regional dialects ("at least").

^

 

9. This would seem to be a direct reference to something or other, but I haven't found it yet.  


^

 

10. From the Lyrics Parade: "In UK dole offices around the time, there were posters saying "Winston Churchill had a speech impediment" as part of a campaign to encourage people with disabilities."

Dan corroborates:

A reference to the poster appears in David Selbourne's essay "Wolverhampton on Ice," first published in New Society (subsequently merged into New Statesman magazine) 21 January 1982, and reprinted in Selbourne's 1987 book Left Behind: Journeys into British Politics (which compiles his series of articles for New Society reporting on his "state of Britain" tour between 1981-1985).Here's the quote (p17 of the book; p94 of the article): "At the job centre in Market Street, Xmas snow dust has been sprayed in white curlicues on the window-panes. 'Disability Can Be Overcome' says a poster: 'Winston Churchill Had a Speech Impediment.' Cigar-in-Mouth, and chin jutting, Churchill stands in the blitz's flaming ruins." 

Tempo House was first performed, apparently, on 10 April 1982, a couple of months after the article was published, so it's possible that MES read New Society and borrowed the idea (but of course he could also have seen it in a job centre, or heard about it from others, or read about it elsewhere). Another reference to the poster occurs in Michael Paterson's 2005 book, Winston Churchill: Personal Accounts of the Great Leader at War, p.9-10: "he even appears on a poster addressed to the physically impaired: 'Winston Churchill had a speech impediment,' announces a caption next to the bowler-hatted, bulldog features, before going on to explain: 'Disability can be overcome' - a valid observation, since he became one of history's great orators, and an intriguing reflection of his universality."

Martin: The debut performance of the song contains the following lyric: "Winston Churchill had a speech impediment, and look what he did: put investments into Temple [cob?] limited..." Churchill was, evidently, a poor judge when it came to financial investments.


^

 

11. Or "He razed half of London." I assume this means he provoked the Germans into erasing/razing half of London.


^

 

12.  Early live versions included the line "Jew on a motorbike," which later became the climax of "Garden."


^

SaveSaveSaveSave

More Information

The Story of the Fall: 1982

Dan submits:

Some other occupants of Tempo House over the years:

Jackie Chan Fan Club
Canned Food Advisory Service
Acting Associates (a co-op acting agency)
EGO Models
A.G. McDougall (clearance of stock from liquidated businesses)
Greenway Publishers
Professor Peter Beresford/Open Services Project
National Association of Laryngectomy Clubs
Qubie Distribution 
Task (Security and Safety Services) Ltd
Boland Advertising
Charles Airey Associates
Pamaldo Nursing Agency
Gran Quartz (UK)
Rumour Records
Green and Bull (solicitors)
etc 

Comments (136)

Martin
  • 1. Martin | 21/04/2013
Very much a long shot, but as MES says "six three Market Place", could this mean that he's referring not to no. 63 in this street/road/whatever, but to one of the flats whose front door is no. 6 in said street?
dannyno
  • 2. dannyno | 19/12/2013
Some further research around bits of this song:
http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/index.php?showtopic=3470&st=50
dannyno
  • 3. dannyno | 08/04/2014
In the Fall Forum thread, I observe that it is possible that "Burton" in the song could refer to men's outfitters "Burtons", because of a reference in a magazine article.

But if the reference is to Richard Burton, that could also work (perhaps as a double meaning), because in November 1974, anticipating the December screening of his Churchill play, Burton attacked Churchill in the New York Times (there were a couple of articles). Burton could be said to be "pedantic welsh", couldn't he, if you disagreed with his assessment of Churchill. He criticises Churchill for his drinking, among other things.
dannyno
  • 4. dannyno | 08/04/2014
Burton's second article, i find, appeared in the American publication TV Guide.
RM
  • 5. RM | 26/05/2014
bzfgt, in verse four, it's "And Burton is weeping", rather than "And Burton's weeping".....Snowy felt this needed pointing out.
bzfgt
  • 6. bzfgt | 28/05/2014
Well, it is a minor correction, but we might as well get it right for posterity, so thanks. We must think of our children's children...anyway this and the LP are the sites of record, and nobody edits that, so if we don't get it right, maybe nobody ever will.
dannyno
  • 7. dannyno | 22/06/2014
Before verse one here there's some "pro-rae" type muttering.

Verse four: "Burton is weeping", as noted in a previous comment, but not apparently updated yet.

After the fourth verse's "pro-rae"s, are some "Loron, Loron"s. Not "Oloron"s. This suggests that where in the sound it sounds like "Oloron", it's actually "Oh, Lauren" or something like that.

Fifth verse is:

"Put your claim into Tempo House
Put your claim into Tempo House
Go round and have a grouse
Put your claim into Tempo House
Put your claim, put your claim"

After the "Solitaire" verse it's "And Burton is weeping" again, not "And Burton's weeping".

And having listened to the "and look what he did / He razed half of London" lines, I think it's actually "and look what he did / Erased half of London".

And the "pro-rae"s which follow "Lusted after French paintings" are themselves then followed by more a couple more "Oh Lauren/Loron/Oloron"s.

And after the final "Put your claim into Tempo House" there's another two pairs of "Pro-rae" and some backing vocal "put your claim, put your claim"
bzfgt
  • 8. bzfgt | 24/06/2014
It sounds like "erased" to me too but I'm not entirely sure...
bzfgt
  • 9. bzfgt | 24/06/2014
I have not heard the studio recording of this song, but Reformation! ha a transcription which has "erased"...so that tips it.
bzfgt
  • 10. bzfgt | 24/06/2014
Otherwise there's nothing revelatory...the lyrics are almost exactly the same.

https://sites.google.com/site/reformationposttpm/perverted-by-language/tempo-house
David Sharman
  • 11. David Sharman (link) | 10/02/2015
When I worked for BT directory enquires I was amused when a customer rang up to ask for the telephone number for Tempo House in London. When I asked what sort of organisation was working at that address I was told that he wanted to make a complaint about a travel agent as the holiday he had just had was the worst ever. When Mark E. Smith sings 'put your claim into Tempo House, go around and have a grouse, put your claim into Tempo House' I always think now that he is making a complaint about a hotel, travel or something to do with what would be considered a holiday, although it may have something to do with being on tour, which is the more obvious really.
dannyno
  • 12. dannyno | 20/02/2015
Yeah, Tempo House is a suite of offices which has been home to lots of organisations down the years - if you look at old classifed ads from the time, the address comes up quite a bit.
numlash
  • 13. numlash | 13/03/2015
Always thought the 'oloron' was really Oh Lauren especially as this song was composed around the same time MES hooked up with Brix aka Laura Salinger.
bzfgt
  • 14. bzfgt | 28/03/2015
But why "Lauren" then?
russell richardson
  • 15. russell richardson | 04/05/2015
Oloron? all seem too tenuous
have always read this as "Alarum!"
as in Shakespeare when there's a fuss or panic, esp. when repeated
maybe?
russell richardson
  • 16. russell richardson | 05/05/2015
very dimly remembered that TEMPLE HOUSE was where you had to sign on the dole in Manchester in the 70s - or maybe the tax office? I also even more dimly remember that this may have been a generic name (in each city, offices of the same govt. dept. either DoE (Dept of Employment) or the DHSS (Dept Health and Social Security). Anyone add to this?
TEMPO HOUSE would then be good musicians' slang for being on the dole.
dannyno
  • 17. dannyno | 07/05/2015
It doesn't sound like "Alarum!" at all, that's my problem with that suggestion.
dannyno
  • 18. dannyno | 07/05/2015
There was a "Temple House" in Cheetham. Mentioned here for example, but long gone: http://www.gmts.co.uk/museum/location.html

I've never heard of Government/DHSS offices all having the same name. And I've never heard, and cannot find, any indication that "Tempo House" is slang for "Temple House", or that "Temple House" had any connection to benefits, tax or other such functions.
dannyno
  • 19. dannyno | 27/03/2016
"The Dutch are weeping"

So the debut of this song was in the Netherlands, in April 1982. Did this bit of the lyric appear that early?

Why would the Dutch be weeping? One reason might be connected to the FIFA world cup, which took place in Spain during June-July 1982. The Dutch failed to qualify for the competition, famously losing 2-0 to France in November 1981, the last of their eight qualifying matches. Could that be it?
Martin
  • 20. Martin | 31/03/2016
I can't hear any reference to the Dutch weeping in the recordings I have of the Dutch mini-tour (The Hague; 19 April 1982 and Rotterdam: 13 April 1982). I'll be on the case as far as later recordings are concerned-
Martin
  • 21. Martin | 31/03/2016
With reference to note 3, surely it's the actor Richard Burton who's being referred to, especially when taken together with the line about "the pedantic Welsh" (Burton was Welsh):
Martin
  • 22. Martin | 01/04/2016
Okay, so I've listened to countless live versions of the song and I can say with as much certainty as possible (given some of these recordings are of bad quality and Mark E Smith sometimes hard to understand) that the first reference I can find to the Dutch is at the (released as an official live album) Melbourne gig on 2 August 1982:

"And the Dutch are moaning [could possibly be "mourning": I need others to listen to this recording] in four languages..."

The Dutch are again mentioned on 17 August at the Christchurch gig, and once more the following day: "God damn the Dutch for weeping in four languages at least."

I think that we have to discount the World Cup theory suggested by Dannyno (comment no. 19 above) and look for other reasons why the Dutch suddenly started to play a lyrical role in the song. Chances are, though, that it was one of those non-sequiterial phrases thrown in at random by the singer, and subsequently retained in the song.
dannyno
  • 23. dannyno | 08/04/2016
Maybe it's based on his experiences in the Netherlands in April? Well, I quite like the football theory still, but there's not exactly much textual evidence for it. Thanks for checking it out.

BTW, Martin, note my comment 3 above , which notes that Burton could be the mens outiftters because of a theory I have that MES read certain New Statesman articles, but that the actor could also fit for the reasons stated (i.e. he famously criticised Churchill, although the incident was unusually early for a Fall lyric).
Antoine
  • 24. Antoine | 24/05/2016
In addition to the already-established context of the song, Tempo House has always struck me as a possible name for some surreal pub, which would suggest an intriguing double-meaning to "have a grouse," as in order a Famous Grouse whisky. Perhaps this might even have something to do with "maybe someone would have a genuine grouse? Coincidence? Yes, perhaps. But then a lot of my suggestions can be far-fetched.

And while this might be even more meaningless, "House of Time" appears to be a 2015 film involving both WWII Nazi experiments and time-travel. Plenty Fallish-sounding indeed, even though I'd never heard of it before Googling "House of Time."
dannyno
  • 25. dannyno | 14/07/2016
Martin, I've noted that Easter Sunday was snowy in 1983. But was that lyric present before Easter 1983?
M.S. Pierce
  • 26. M.S. Pierce | 21/10/2016
The Churchill bit is very clever. I've heard it as "He raised/razed half of London" as well as "Erased half of London".

"I tell ya, the Dutch/are weeping/in four languages/at least" may be my favorite Fall lyric.
bzfgt
  • 27. bzfgt | 22/10/2016
Yeah, if you had asked me this morning what the lyric is I'd have said "razed half of London." I'm not sure how it became "erased" here, I assume there was a reason (lyrics book or something?). My note is odd, instead of acknowledging the lyric might be something else I just use the word "razed," maybe I was being ecooimical with my words. I don't know, but I'm too lazy to change it today....next time I come here I'll investigate the lyric again and spell things out.
bzfgt
  • 28. bzfgt | 22/10/2016
Actually this is not in a lyrics book, I think we have "erased" because a close listen seems to reveal that he says "erased." I will listen at some point and make sure, because I did seem to have a vague idea it was "razed". If anyone wants to give it a spin and weigh in that would be splendid.
dannyno
  • 29. dannyno | 22/10/2016
I heard it as "erased" for the concordance.
Martin
  • 30. Martin | 16/12/2016
Yes, on the unreleased studio version "erased" is very clearly said.

Dannyno, referring to your comment above (no. 25) about snow on Easter Monday: I'll be on the job as soon as other stuff allows. Sometimes I don't see new comments on here until months afterwards, which is a pity: when the word "NEW" comes up next to a song I know there's been some updating, but I have the suspicion that this only appears when the board operator himself adds stuff...or maybe I'm mistaken here?
Martin
  • 31. Martin | 17/12/2016
I've been listening to the live performance of the song from this gig: 13 April 1982 De Doelen, Rotterdam, The Netherlands .

The first thing to say is that roughly after the midpoint of the song, MES sings "Richard Burton is weeping". I suppose this is fairly convincing evidence that this and no other is the man referred to in the lyrics.

Secondly, we do have the line "snow on Easter Monday" This automatically rules out references to snow in 1983 (see above comments) but does at the same time concentrate our attention on 1982. Now, as it happens, Easter Sunday in 1982 fell on 11 April, just a couple of days before the gig mentioned above. As one naturally does, I googled for Dutch weather records of the era and found this website:

https://weatherspark.com/history/28802/2016/Amsterdam-Noord-Holland-The-Netherlands

If you scroll down to the section entitled "Snow"" then it can be seen that snow fell in Amsterdam during the month of April. Here's an extract from the site:

"The first reported snow fall in the last 12 months was on December 16; the last was on November 18. The month of the last 12 months with the largest number of those reports was April, with a total of 62 reports."

Admittedlly, Amsterdam is not Rotterdam or anywhere else in Holland, but the country is so small and mostly at or just above sea-level so one would expect snowfall to be fairly constant across the country. And The Fall would have been travelling from gig to gig by road and so MES would presumably have seen this Easter Sunday snow along the way.
dannyno
  • 32. dannyno | 24/12/2016
Good work Martin. 1982 it is. And certainly Britain was not noticeably snowy around Easter 1982: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/5/8/Apr1982.pdf
dannyno
  • 33. dannyno | 24/12/2016
On 10th April, The Fall were in The Hague. On the 12th they were in Groningen. Rotterdam on the 13th.

So there's a long journey up north between 10th - 12th, and back again to Rotterdam. And Amsterdam is on the way. Maybe they stayed there overnight on the way up the country?
dannyno
  • 34. dannyno | 02/01/2017
In the early 1980s, one of the companies based at Tempo House, Falcon Road, was "Mike Mingard Music Limited". Mingard seems to have been into music publishing and management.
dannyno
  • 35. dannyno | 02/01/2017
Mike Mingard was Gary Glitter's manager.
John Coyle
  • 36. John Coyle | 16/01/2017
"Oloron" or more accurately Oleron may refer to the protagonist in the classic supernatural story, "The Beckoning Fair One" by Oliver Onions. In this, a writer named Paul Oleron becomes captivated by a mysterious spirit which appears to haunt the house he is renting. He gradually loses touch with reality and appears to kill the woman who loves him. The sort of thing MES would be all over.
dannyno
  • 37. dannyno | 22/01/2017
Comment #36, John Coyle. I like the connection very much. The trouble we have, though, is that the name - whatever it is - is merely intoned, without any context or surrounding narrative. So while "Oleron" from "The Beckoning Fair One" may or may not be correct, there seems little reason to think - or any textual evidence in the song to support us thinking - that it's him rather than any other option.
bzfgt
  • 38. bzfgt | 04/02/2017
True, but we don't really have anything else and, as I say in my note, the author has a certain profile that veritably cries out "MES"!! Nothing to bet one's life on, but worth I note. I'd like to read the story and see if there's any further reason to tarry with the idea.

The anti-spam is going crazy and accusing me of having ad-block on when it's disabled for this site....damn it. Various other nonsense, I've had to retry this 5 times now. Here goes...
dannyno
  • 39. dannyno | 12/04/2017
I've been trying to find a picture of the "disability can be overcome" jobcentre poster. I've not been successful so far, but I'm going to keep trying. However, since note 9 only cites the old Lyrics Parade, I thought it would be helpful to provide some further evidence for the existence of the poster.

On the FOF I noted that a reference to the poster appears in David Selbourne's essay "Wolverhampton on Ice", first published in New Society (subsequently merged into New Statesman magazine) 21 January 1982, and reprinted in Selbourne's 1987 book "Left Behind: journeys into British politics" (which compiles his series of articles for New Society reporting on his "state of Britain" tour between 1981-1985).

Image

Here's the quote (p17 of the book; p94 of the article):


At the job centre in Market Street, Xmas snow dust has been sprayed in white curlicues on the window-panes. 'Disability Can Be Overcome' says a poster: 'Winston Churchill Had a Speech Impediment.' Cigar-in-Mouth, and chin jutting, Churchill stands in the blitz's flaming ruins.


Tempo House was first performed, apparently, on 10 April 1982, a couple of months after the article was published, so it's possible that MES read New Society and borrowed the idea (but of course he could also have seen it in a jobcentre, or heard about it from others, or read about it elsewhere).

Another reference to the poster occurs in Michael Paterson's 2005 book, "Winston Churchill: Personal Accounts of the Great Leader at War.", p.9-10 [the apparent present tense is not to be taken literally]:

he even appears on a poster addressed to the physically impaired: 'Winston Churchill had a speech impediment,' announces a caption next to the bowler-hatted, bulldog features, before going on to explain: 'Disability can be overcome' - a valid observation, since he became one of history's great orators, and an intriguing reflection of his universality.
dannyno
  • 40. dannyno | 29/04/2017
An echo:

Interview by Jack Barron, Sounds, 13 August 1983:


As a kid I used to be obsessed that like I was reincarnated from the trenches of the First World War. I used to think one day I would open the closet and a load of war dead would pour out all over me.
dannyno
  • 41. dannyno | 29/04/2017
Sorry, that belongs in Open the Boxoctosis!
dannyno
  • 42. dannyno | 29/04/2017
In the twelfth century, Eleanor of Aquitaine (by that time Queen Consort of England) promulgated the Rolls d'Oléron - the Laws of Oleron - among the first maritime laws. Oléron is an island off the coast of France, and was where Eleanor was based at the time.

Text in English: http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/documents/oleron.html

"Pro re nata" is the kind of phrase one would find in a legal text, isn't it?

A new research direction, anyway.
dannyno
  • 43. dannyno | 29/04/2017
Olga Carlisle's Island in Time: a memoir of childhood. Daily life during the occupation was published in 1980. Olga's family were exiled from Russia in 1917 and settled in Paris. During the second world war, they went into exile again on the island of Oléron, where the teenage Olga delivered resistance messages by bicycle. She was to marry Henry Carlisle, then an American GI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Carlisle) in post-war Paris.

Given some of the implicit meanings of the lyrics, it might be worth getting hold of this book in case MES also read it.
bzfgt
  • 44. bzfgt (link) | 13/05/2017
'Disability Can Be Overcome' says a poster: 'Winston Churchill Had a Speech Impediment.'

Punctuation as in original I assume? Kind of dodgy.
bzfgt
  • 45. bzfgt (link) | 13/05/2017
"Cigar-in-Mouth"

Really?!
dannyno
  • 46. dannyno | 13/05/2017
Hey, don't shoot the messenger!
bzfgt
  • 47. bzfgt (link) | 18/05/2017
Reminds me of the Kids in the Hall movie..."OK, I slept with your best friend and then told you about it...but don't shoot the messenger!"
dannyno
  • 48. dannyno | 19/05/2017
I like that. I'm gonna steal that and use it at work at every opportunity.
Martin
  • 49. Martin | 12/07/2017
The debut performance of the song contains the following lyric:

"Winston Churchill had a speech impediment, and look what he did: put investments into Temple (cob?) limited..."

Churchill was, evidently, a poor judge when it came to financial investments:

http://janiczek.com/winston-churchill-investment-mistakes/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3231410/Winston-spendaholic-teetered-brink-bankruptcy-saved-secret-backhanders-new-book-Chuchill-s-finances-reveals-spent-40-000-year-casinos-54-000-booze.html
Martin
  • 50. Martin | 12/07/2017
Has anyone watched "The Gathering Storm" to see if there are any clues as the lyrics in the film? It's on youtube: I'll watch it either today or tomorrow.
Martin
  • 51. Martin | 12/07/2017
Well, I've watched The Gathering Storm, and though unfortunately there isn't any dialogue which connects directly to the song, there are some moments which may or may not be relevant to the lyrics, either in the live released version or in other live versions we have access to.

Churchill's financial woes are directly addressed, for example. Also, two of his children (tots?) feature prominently in the fim. His youngest daughter, near the beginning, is upset about a dog of hers which has been injured, presumably hit by a car, and later on there is an altercation between Churchill and his son Randolph (the difficult relationship between father and son is well-documented).

Holland is only mentioned once, as Churchill learns that the Germans have been building boats in that country as well as in Finland.
dannyno
  • 52. dannyno | 12/07/2017
I think "The Gathering Storm" must be relevant somehow, even if only for the articles Burton wrote about Churchill at the time. The only thing that gives me pause is that it was shown in 1974, which seems a long time for a Fall song - although the story of Burton's criticism of Churchill was notorious - and it doesn't seem to have been repeated around 1981. But it's still inescapable.

In September 1981, an 8 part series starting Robert Hardy as Churchill commencing broadcasting on ITV.

In the FOF thread on the song (http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/index.php?showtopic=3470) I suggest watching the final scene of Burton's film "Absolution", which was released in 1981 - "Jesus Christ in reverse", you see.

There's an interesting echo of the "pedantic" lyric in the Guardian's review of "Absolution", by their longstanding critic Derek Malcolm. It was published on 5 November 1981:


Richard Burton is the the unfortunate pedant, and possibly pederast, driven bonkers by the pupil he cherishes... and finally clobbered by the weakling... he has always despised.


A biography of Burton by Paul Ferris was published in September 1981. Maybe there would be some clues in that?

I have in the past wondered if we have several "Burtons" in play in the lyric.

I have also previously pointed out that


In 1981, a BBC report by Robert Harris alleged that Churchill wanted to use anthrax bombs on Germany.


http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/index.php?showtopic=3470&view=findpost&p=12054700

Associations keep piling up with this song.
jensotto
  • 53. jensotto | 07/11/2017
BBC Genome tells us that Richard Burton was in the series The Valiant Years, based on Churchill's memoirs and shown 1961 and 1965.
Another Burton-track is that John "Peel" Ravenscroft grew up inn Burton, Cheshire - while the Peel family were central in Burton, Staffordshire centuries ago.
According to PWC (peel.wikia.com), Peel did not play Tempo House :-)
Ian Forth
  • 54. Ian Forth (link) | 27/02/2018
Although there was no snow in England in 1982, I do remember an unusually snowy Easter the previous year, 1981. We were travelling to Devon, and had to get re-routed a few times, as the snow was piled up, blocking roads.

However, and more significantly, no English historian (and I think we can count Mark amongst this number) would hear the words "Snow on Easter Sunday" and not immediately assume this was a reference to the Battle of Towton in1461 during the Wars of the Roses. Almost forgotten now, it was fought in a snowstorm on Palm Sunday. It remains the single bloodiest battle on English soil, with casualties reportedly up to 38,000, and no quarter given on either side.

The effect of the battle was to secure the Yorkist Edward IV's position on the throne against an army of Lancastrians. A Yorkist dynasty remained intact with one brief interlude until Richard 111 lost his throne to Henry Tudor, backed by the Lancastrian cause in 1485. It was a significant encounter in creating a new royal Yorkist dynasty. Not hard to see why it might have caught Mar's eye, perhaps.

The snowstorm affected the course of the battle. The howling wind meant the Yorkists could loose their arrows into the Lancastrian ranks, while the Lancastrian reply fell short. This, coupled with the snow streaming into their faces, forced the hand of the Lancastrians They determined on hand-to-hand fighting - the battle lasting between three and ten hours, depending on which source you trust.

Although the allusions are loose, to say the least, I've always heard an historical thread running through the song, - Churchill, the Dutch waiting offshore to take advantage of a weak monarch, much as Henry Tudor did in 1485. The Lancastrian rump that fled the battlefield eventually ended up abroad and some could have gone to the Dutch courts (I haven't checked this), in effect, weeping.

And I've always heard "Jesus Christ in reverse" as a poetically accurate description of one of the holiest days in the Christian calendar turning into this horrific bloodbath. Literally, the streams around the battlefield were said to have run red for days afterwards. There may even, on the continued historical note, be an echo of "The Anarchy" in King Stephen's reign of the twelfth century, when "men openly said Christ and his angels slept".
Davis McArdle
  • 55. Davis McArdle | 01/03/2018
John Coyle | 16/01/2017
"Oloron" or more accurately Oleron may refer to the protagonist in the classic supernatural story, "The Beckoning Fair One" by Oliver Onions.

A possible factor in favour of this reference - the story was adapted for an edition of the 1968 Hammer tv anthology series Journey To The Unknown, episodes of which were receiving sporadic nightcap-telly repeats throughout 1983 on the ITV network. Afraid I can't access the relevant listings to confirm further, but it's within the bounds of possibility that MES might've happened across it over his Ovaltine one evening.
dannyno
  • 56. dannyno | 04/03/2018
Ian Forth, comment #55 good call, definitely worth noting. Except the song refers to Easter Sunday, not Palm Sunday (which is the previous week). Alternate lyrics refer to Easter Monday. And we've done some work on the weather above, which makes me think it's not a historical reference but a contemporary one.
dannyno
  • 57. dannyno | 04/03/2018
David McArdle, comment #55:

"the story was adapted for an edition of the 1968 Hammer tv anthology series Journey To The Unknown, episodes of which were receiving sporadic nightcap-telly repeats throughout 1983 on the ITV network. "

I'll try and check this.
dannyno
  • 58. dannyno | 04/03/2018
So here's the original broadcast (Gretchen Franklin alert!)

JOURNEY TO THE UNKNOWN
The Beckoning Fair One
by William Woods and John Gould from the story by Oliver Onions
First broadcast: Saturday, 15 Feb 1969, 23:15 (60 mins)
ITV London
Jonathan Holden, a young artist, is strangley drawn to an old house, rebuilt after the wartime bombing of London and falls under the spell of a long-dead coquette.

Producer - Anthony Hinds
Director - Don Chaffey
Cast
Clive Francis - Crichton
Gabrielle Drake - Kit Beaumont
Gretchen Franklin - Mrs Barrett
John Fraser - Derek
Larry Nohle - Mr Barrett
Robert Lansing - Jonathan Holden

Repeated:

26 January 1972, 2245
ITV Grampian

Friday, 8 Feb 1985, 00:30 (50 mins) [so actually, 9th February]
ITV London

But not shown on Granada, and I haven't yet found that it was shown in 1982 or 1983.
dannyno
  • 59. dannyno | 04/03/2018
Anyway, although the protagonist was "Paul Oleron" in the original story, in the TV adaptation the name was changed to "Jonathan Holden". So the TV adaptation is not the source of the lyric, unless seeing it (although, when?) made MES go back to the original story.
dannyno
  • 60. dannyno | 04/03/2018
Found some more broadcasts, including in Granada region.. will post details later. Headline is still that there is no evidence yet that it was show in 1982/3.
dannyno
  • 61. dannyno | 04/03/2018
Oh, I'll do it now, as it turns out there's just one more broadcast to add.

Friday 3 April
Granada
11:15pm - 12:15am

After 1985, it was shown again in 1988.

So to summarise: the programme was not shown in 1982/3, and anyway the character's name was changed from the original.
dannyno
  • 62. dannyno | 04/03/2018
Let's try that again, missed the year out!

Oh, I'll do it now, as it turns out there's just one more broadcast to add.

Friday 3 April 1970
Granada
11:15pm - 12:15am

So to summarise: the programme was not (on current evidence) shown in 1982/3, and anyway the character's name was changed from the original.

After 1985, it was shown again in 1988.
Davis McArdle
  • 63. Davis McArdle | 04/03/2018
dannyno

Well, sorry for the wild goose chase. After digging through some old DVD-Rs, I located my samizdat off-airs of JTTU, & discovered the name-change of the lead character in TBFO, was just coming back here to note my solecism. Should also have mentioned that my memories of 1983 repeats are from the Grampian TV area, which had eccentric late-night variations in its schedule. But thank you for checking.
bzfgt
  • 64. bzfgt (link) | 10/03/2018
Couldn't he just have read it? Maybe even within 4 months of writing the song, as a pre-cogged way of keeping Dan happy?
dannyno
  • 65. dannyno | 11/03/2018


He could have read it. It's a possibility, though you wonder what the name is doing there in that case. Although, house theme....
Mike F
  • 66. Mike F (link) | 27/06/2018
“Jesus Christ in reverse” I always heard this as a witty religiously subversive remark. As death is the reverse of birth and we are always expected to laud snow at Christmas and the onset of spring at Easter. Surely something’s the wrong way round - makes me smile anyway. Thanks for a great website much appreciated.
bzfgt
  • 67. bzfgt (link) | 15/07/2018
Thanks, Mike.
BreconBorn
  • 68. BreconBorn | 21/02/2019
I live in Battersea where there is a Tempo House. I don't know if it's the only one and the address certainly isn't "six three Market Place". The sign is still on the wall at 15 Falcon Road on the corner of Patience Road, just behind a Wetherspoons pub and they seem to still be operating. Are they a chain of some sort or opened by a Fall fan?

https://www.google.com/search?q=tempo+house+battersea&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjusqXs_83gAhXgSxUIHXlsDMsQ_AUIDygC&biw=1600&bih=789#imgrc=JFoQPwD3aWVc9M:
dannyno
  • 69. dannyno | 23/03/2019
Comment #68, no it's an office building - presumably kind of serviced offices or something.

There's an Irish stately home of the same name but 15 Falcon Road is the one everyone finds or knows about and is the most plausible candidate.

It was there long before the Fall song, and I think it is exactly what the lyric is referring to.

I've done quite a bit of research on it, and over the years it's been home to loads of different agencies, companies etc. So for example if you read old magazine or newspaper adverts, Tempo House crops up quite often as an address to write to.

See some of my posts here from a couple of years ago.

The lyric is not specific, but I think it's probably referring to some music industry organisation or something like that, that at the time was based at Tempo House. But it could be anything.
bzfgt
  • 70. bzfgt (link) | 13/04/2019
Well fuck I guess I'm way overdue noting that.
bzfgt
  • 71. bzfgt (link) | 13/04/2019
Crap, I already noted it but down in note 5...huh
bzfgt
  • 72. bzfgt (link) | 13/04/2019
I've been trying to make the font bigger when I remember, making everything 16. The carets are really small though...bugs me.
dannyno
  • 73. dannyno | 21/04/2019
I've noted somewhere that music industry related people in Tempo House at various points.

Some other occupants of Tempo House over the years:

Jackie Chan Fan Club
Canned Food Advisory Service
Acting Associates (a co-op acting agency)
EGO Models
A.G. McDougall (clearance of stock from liquidated businesses)
Greenway Publishers
Professor Peter Beresford/Open Services Project
National Association of Laryngectomy Clubs
Qubie Distribution
Task (Security and Safety Services) Ltd
Boland Advertising
Charles Airey Associates
Pamaldo Nursing Agency
Gran Quartz (UK)
Rumour Records
Green and Bull (solicitors)
etc etc etc
dannyno
  • 74. dannyno | 19/05/2019
Note 7: the Labour candidate being referred to was probably, as I have discussed on the FOF, one Joseph Moon, who was defeated by Alice Maders (the Tory incumbent) in the 1982 local elections. But also note that the elections happened after the live debut of this song. "Jesus Christ in Reverse" may therefore not here be intended to directly refer to Moon, but may be a phrase pressed into service for different purposes in different contexts.
dannyno
  • 75. dannyno | 19/05/2019
Although, the elections were close to the earliest outings of this song.
New Fall Fan
  • 76. New Fall Fan | 23/08/2019
Re: the Pro Ra Rata. "Pro Rae. Pro Rae" I dont know. It very well could be what he is saying. I had assumed , until reading this, that he was saying something in Dutch. Some Dutch phrase/word. I don't know a lick of Dutch so I don't know what that word could possibly be, but I thought it fit in with the context nicely. It seems to be about as random as the Latin phrase which seems like an odd choice to me, but who knows. (It also sounds sort of like "Hooray Hooray" or maybe the Dutch equivalent of?)
bzfgt
  • 77. bzfgt (link) | 31/08/2019
Well if we get someone who knows Dutch you may well be vindicated, NFF...the truth will out eventually I hope
Hexen Blumenthal
  • 78. Hexen Blumenthal | 20/11/2019
I wish I could recall where I read that Churchill had shares in certain German factories which the RAF were ordered not to bomb. Might have been in that Pan book.
Chubby Round Jowls
  • 79. Chubby Round Jowls | 27/04/2020
I lived in the Netherlands, when I was a lot younger, for 8 years and learnt Dutch through my Dutch ex. I don't recognise Pro Rae being Dutch at all.
The line "Illness, pollution, should be encouraged and let loose" has always been one that intrigued me. Where does that come from?
Chubby Round Jowls
  • 80. Chubby Round Jowls | 27/04/2020
I don't have that lyric book but is it definitely spelt r-a-e? Is Tempo House in that lyric book?
Also, isn't pro latin for the word for?
bzfgt
  • 81. bzfgt (link) | 02/05/2020
Yeah, no written source for this, someone just transcribed "pro rae" at some point and it stuck, is my guess. Who knows?
dannyno
  • 82. dannyno | 16/05/2020
The medical Latin phrase seems most likely, if it is "pro re" or "pro rae". If it isn't that, and it might not be, I don't know what it is.
Jim
  • 83. Jim | 21/05/2020
Could 'Oloron' be referring to this guy?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%BB%8Cl%E1%BB%8Drun
Jim
  • 84. Jim | 21/05/2020
Ok, I can't copy the link but type in 'Olorun' on Wikipedia and it'll come up.
dannyno
  • 85. dannyno | 02/06/2020
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%BB%8Cl%E1%BB%8Drun

It could be.

Question is, does it have a stronger claim than any of the other candidates?
Martin
  • 86. Martin | 17/06/2020
Some comments, a few of which may be useful, others irrelevant. Not for me to say.
For reference we have two YouTube clips, one of the debut performance of the song (10 April 1982; The Hague; track starts from 23’ 25”)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59Ig6xbvdds

And the live (canonical?) version as released on Perverted By Language:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUrOxZOAhSk

As I mentioned in comment no. 1, I’m intrigued by the way MES sings “six three” and not “sixty-three”. Could it possibly be a reference to floor 6, room 3?

“Roll the chubby round jowls
Roll the chubby round jowls”

In the debut, both “thes” sound like “their to me”. In Perverted, the first sounds like “their”, the second “the”. Opinions? And what is the following line at The Hague?

In the debut version, there are lines which (roughly speaking: can others check?) are along the lines of:

“Look at the boy(?)
Look at the boy
Look at the boy behind you
A black dog…shoulders
How many dogs do you have to carry around?”

which remind me of these lyrics from Backdrop, debuted on the same Dutch tour:

“It's about time you started thinking
About the black dog on your back”

Of course, The Fall had practice in such cross-referencing and conflation. Here’s a partial and incomplete list (further suggestions and criticisms welcome!)

https://thefallliveblog.wordpress.com/someone-always-on-my-tracks/cross-referencing-in-the-fall/

Finally, the debut version (a day before Easter Sunday) contained no references to snow. Much in the same way as in The N.W.R.A, MES reacted to current weather conditions and incorporated them in the lyrics.
Martin
  • 87. Martin | 17/06/2020
"The debut performance of the song contains the following lyric:

"Winston Churchill had a speech impediment, and look what he did: put investments into Temple (cob?) limited..."

I now think that the word I was unsure about is cog.
dannyno
  • 88. dannyno | 17/06/2020
The Rotterdam-based newspaper Algemeen Dagblad had "Easter traffic in the snow" on its front page on 10 April 1982:

https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=KBPERS01:002987009:mpeg21:p00001
bzfgt
  • 89. bzfgt (link) | 21/06/2020
Jim 83: Yes, but since we're not sure that's what he says, it's highly speculative
bzfgt
  • 90. bzfgt (link) | 21/06/2020
Yeah does sound like "their"
bzfgt
  • 91. bzfgt (link) | 21/06/2020
A grey chappie truth head?
bzfgt
  • 92. bzfgt (link) | 21/06/2020
Black dog is riding on his shoulders?
Bome
  • 93. Bome | 16/10/2020
Did Churchill really lust after French paintings?
He was painting in the South of France at the end of his life.

Going cryptic crossword, A Woman Weeping is a Dutch painting by Rembrandt - too tenuous.

Burtons shares are weeping - (Why?)

Churchill was supposed to be a bit of a weeper?
https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/churchill-the-cry-baby-war-hero/
dannyno
  • 94. dannyno | 17/10/2020
Comment #93. Churchill died in London, though he did spend a lot of time in France during his retirement.

But the lyric doesn't say that Churchill lusted after French paintings.
Bome
  • 95. Bome | 18/10/2020
He definitely says AND lusted after French paintings in live versions.
dannyno
  • 96. dannyno | 20/10/2020
But not all live versions. Not, for instance, the live version I think bzfgt has used here from Perverted by Language.

I mean, it could be that we can find a credible connection between Churchill and French paintings. But we also need an open mind, because what this is yet another example of MES's willingness to be flexible with the order of lines.

Might be worth a detailed analysis of all the versions we can find.
Voxish
  • 97. Voxish | 29/11/2020
Came across this article and immediately thought of Tempo House.
“A lorra lorra laughs”
http://linguistics-research-digest.blogspot.com/2012/01/its-lorra-lorra-laughs.html
M.E.S. would probably have been familiar with Liverpool hits of the 70s. (Though I think your Oloron is probably right.)
For what it's worth, I always thought he was saying “allora,” the Italian word for “Well, Then, So, Come on, and So What.”
dannyno
  • 98. dannyno | 12/01/2021
Further to comments #51 and #52, and note 4, I watched Winston Churchill - the Wilderness Years.

This was an 8-part series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill:_The_Wilderness_Years) broadcast on ITV in the UK in September and October 1981. It focuses on Churchill's decade out of government, 1929-1939, and starred Robert Hardy as Churchill.

Given that Tempo House debuted live in April 1982, I thought I might find some clues in the series. I could imagine it being more of an influence on the themes of the song than the 1974 series starring Burton. And I wondered if Burton might have been said to be "weeping" with envy at the quality of Hardy's performance. But

However, although Churchill's problems with investments in shares play a part in the series, like the 1974 The Gathering Storm there's no dialogue that seems to have directly informed the lyrics.

If anyone wants to watch it - it's quite good - it's currently on YouTube. Episode one for example:

bzfgt
  • 99. bzfgt (link) | 22/02/2021
97: I'm not crazy about "Oloron," that's for sure...Oloron is far from sure.
John Howard
  • 100. John Howard | 26/02/2021
Prorae is Latin for "go forth".
bzfgt
  • 101. bzfgt (link) | 09/03/2021
You sure about that? The google translator gives me "prow"
Joshua Ross
  • 102. Joshua Ross | 19/04/2021
I asked a friend what 'Jesus Christ in reverse' meant

He said snow falls down and Jesus rose up.

That's the version I choose to believe.
John Howard
  • 103. John Howard | 20/04/2021
From prora
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/prora#Latin
bzfgt
  • 104. bzfgt (link) | 24/04/2021
Also Easter is around the equinox, generally, i.e. the "(re-)birth" of the son. Some have interpreted the Christ story as resonant with the sun, Christ dies and is reborn right when the Sun enters it's longer phase and is seen as being reborn (although ultimately it is probably more aptly reborn at the winter solstice, when Christ was born)....anyway snow coming at the beginning of Spring rather than sunshine could be seen as the reverse of the sun/Son.

I don't know if that's coherent enough as is for a note...also see comment 66
bzfgt
  • 105. bzfgt (link) | 24/04/2021
Sorry, I don't mean that to contradict your comment, JH--yours may be more directly apt. If we associate JC with the sun and spring, he is rising while the cold snow is falling
bzfgt
  • 106. bzfgt (link) | 24/04/2021
I feel like my last too comments are a little too nebulous because we'd have to find places where people have connected the JC story with the seasons, as Aleister Crowley very explicitly did (he considered it a "solar myth," but he's not exactly a respectable scholarly source on this)
dannyno
  • 107. dannyno | 24/04/2021
Well, more broadly spring represents new life, and winter the opposite. And snow is associated with winter, so.

I guess the point to address in the first place is whether "Snow on Easter Sunday/Jesus Christ in Reverse" represent a single thought or idea, or stand alone. I mean, the meanings accumulate anyway, but consider that verse:


I'd sing "Solitaire" for the B.E.F.
But who wants to be with them, anyway?
Snow on Easter Sunday
Jesus Christ in reverse
I tell ya, the Dutch are weeping
In four languages at least


So we have the B.E.F. bit and the weeping Dutch bit, and sandwiched in the middle those two lines. They don't appear to be connected as such. We know there was Easter snow at the time, and we also know there is some baggage to the Jesus Christ in reverse line (local politician).

So perhaps the two lines are brought together from different places because they sound good together and have all these associations, but perhaps there's not really anything deeper than that.
bzfgt
  • 108. bzfgt (link) | 01/05/2021
Right, and reading it just now I kind of imagined them as expressions like "Good grief!"

"Snow on Easter Sunday! Jesus H Christ in reverse! Is someone going to tell them to stop that racket?!"
Xyralothep's cat
  • 109. Xyralothep's cat | 04/06/2021
this demo version round about 5:28 confirms to my ears something I've long suspected but not had the ammo for - Tempo House address is not "6-3 Market Place" but "6 Green Market Place" (or Greenmarket). LP and the live takes I've heard concur. Obviously a real world correlation between that address and a tempo house of some kind would be the xmoking gun, google research gets snagged up with "green markets" which seem to be a thing nowadays
bzfgt
  • 110. bzfgt (link) | 05/06/2021
Shit maybe we're closing in!
dannyno
  • 111. dannyno | 05/06/2021
Comment #109: I've had a search in the Digimap Ordnance Survey Data Collection, which includes both current and historical place names.

From which research I am confident in concluding that there is not now, and nor has there ever been, anywhere in the UK with the name "Green Market Place".

The closest I can get is a street in Penzance, Cornwall, called "The Greenmarket":

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/The+Greenmarket,+Penzance/@50.1183482,-5.5375782,20z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x486ac4641e041219:0x732987c69a9c49b!8m2!3d50.1183448!4d-5.5370887

I've listed to the demo. I'm skeptical, but I definitely don't think the "G/green Market" hearing can be dismissed out of hand. If it is that on one occasion, I mihgt suspect MES of flubbing the line that one time. But he might also have changed it. A possibility.

I am also not sure it's supposed to be an actual address in the first place.

But my general approach to Fall lyrics is to assume that there is a real world reference and run with it until we run out of options - it's an approach that has paid off many times.

So I guess we keep looking, and I'll add this "Green Market" hearing to the list too. I've suspected a Dutch location, because the song
dannyno
  • 112. dannyno | 05/06/2021
Sorry, cut that off prematurely.

Listen to the first documented recording of the song, at Paard Van Troje, The Hague, 10 April 1982:

https://thefallliveblog.wordpress.com/2020/03/13/saturday-10-april-1982-paard-van-troje-the-hague-the-netherlands/



It's sounds much more like "6 3" there, to me.

Listen from about 25



So I've often suspected a Dutch location because of where the song debuted, but I can't make that stand up.
IR
  • 113. IR | 05/06/2021
Not sure if this is the place to discuss variants, but on this version MES has the Dutch Weeping in six (!) languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2h8tuHBp48&t=1s
Xyralothep's cat
  • 114. Xyralothep's cat | 06/06/2021
Re 112, still sounds "green" to me, I feel committed to that. Dutch connection is interesting, Groenmarkt seems to be a recurring placename in the NL. There's a Groenmarkt Platz in Ameersfoot, but for all I know it was built post 1983
dannyno
  • 115. dannyno | 09/06/2021
The Hague's Groenmarkt is only a 5 minute walk from Paard Van Troje, come to that.
bzfgt
  • 116. bzfgt (link) | 12/06/2021
Yeah I am convinced by "Green" but I could be talked out of it again. Can't find a referent either way....
Enno de Witt
  • 117. Enno de Witt | 04/07/2021
There are two officially recognized languages in The Netherlands: Dutch and Frisian. Papiamento is spoken 'oyr' Caribian Islands, which all have a different status within the Kingdom of the Netherlands. English is used a lot, for instance in our University Colleges, but not an official language. We also have some dialects aspiring to become languages (which when spoken by monorities are heavily subsidized), first and foremost Lower-Saxon, spoken by a handful of people in the east of the country.
Enno de Witt
  • 118. Enno de Witt | 25/07/2021
The British Expeditionary Force fought in Belgium and France after the nazi-invasion. The remainder was evacuated at Dunkirk.
CRJ
  • 119. CRJ | 03/08/2021
The reference to the Towton battle.

I'd just like to clarify, as I don't think any of the comments do, that the battle was on Palm Sunday, not Easter Sunday.

Palm Sunday is the Sunday before Good Friday and celebrates JC entering Jerusalem on his donkey.
Easter Sunday is the Sunday after Good Friday (crucifiction day) and is the day of the resurrection of JC.
T.L.B.
  • 120. T.L.B. | 24/08/2022
mistake in the 4th verse - surely this is 'rather chubby round jowls', instead of 'roll their chubby round jowls' etc ?

More generally, although it's great that there is a Tempo House in Battersea, I'm not sure that it has more than a coincidental connection with this song, unless we can establish another link between M.E.S. and the building in question.

I agree with Russell Richardson (comments 15/16), it seems to me that Tempo House is very much concerned with the process of of making benefit (welfare) claims and wider themes surrounding this, such as whether an artist should be supported by the State, is the extent of welfare provision justifiable or desirable ? etc.

Russell is right to say that Government Buildings had generic names, often ending in 'House.' For example in Preston, where I'm from, we had Gateway House, Duchy House, Elizabeth House, Victoria House, Red Rose House, Palatine House and Barry House : all DHSS/DWP buildings within walking distance of each other in the city centre. Tempo House sounds to me like a name M.E.S. could have invented for an imaginary unemployment or supplementary benefit office. It is not inconceivable that MES or other band members were either signing on the dole or claiming an associated benefit, such as Housing Benefit, in 1981/82 when this song was written. Tempo House could be a fantasy warping of their direct experience at a DHSS or Local Council office.

The "serious man in need of a definitive job" ,"put your claim into Tempo House" and "go round and have a grouse" lyrics and the Winston Churchill speech impediment poster reference all back this up.

People accessing benefits have to make a 'claim.' In the 80s this involved filling in a claim form which was posted to, or sometimes handed in at, the local DHSS office. Anyone who has experience of these offices in the 70s and 80s will recognise the 'go round and have a grouse (argument)' line, as people who had problems with their claim generally had to sort them out in person with staff at the DHSS office, rather than phoning a helpline as they would do now. Parents with no childcare options often had to bring their kids with them into these offices, hence the 'tormented tots' in the 2nd verse. It sounds like M.E.S. could easily have seen the Winston Churchill poster in his local DHSS office too.

In the rest of the song, M.E.S. seems to playing about with the morality around welfare provision. Richard Burton and the Dutch "weeping in four languages at least" are cited as liberal stereotypes who support the system. M.E.S.'s typical devil's advocate response to liberals is "Illness, pollution, should be encouraged and let loose, then maybe some would have a genuine grouse." However, he is also unimpressed with the Conservative alternative, to follow the example of Churchill's self-reliance, sniping that he 'erased half of London.'
T.L.B.
  • 121. T.L.B. | 07/09/2022
I've had some more thoughts on this.
Tempo House was first aired in Spring 1982, around the time Hex Enduction Hour was released. In later interviews, M.E.S. said that he was thinking of ending The Fall at that time and that Hex was intended to be the band's final statement. If you believe that, a reading of Tempo House as being themed with unemployment and benefit claims makes sense, as M.E.S. could have been considering making a benefit claim himself, if he was about to split up the band.
In this context, "I'd sing Solitaire for the B.E.F" might even be a joke about the kind of employment that M.E.S. envisages he would be offered if he turned up at the Job Centre saying that he was looking for work ('a serious man, in need of a definitive job') and had been the singer in a band for the last 5 years. I also think it's a very Fall-like construct to repurpose the B.E.F. as a state-subsidised outfit whose main function was to provide gainful employment for superannuated pop singers. And, after all, the B.E.F. were responsible for reviving Tina Turner's career!
dannyno
  • 122. dannyno | 12/09/2022
Re: comment #121. As Paul Hanley and other group members have said, the idea that MES was thinking of disbanding The Fall c. Hex was news to them, at least.
pbzp
  • 123. pbzp | 05/03/2023
always thought snow on easter sunday/jesus christ in reverse was because snow happens on His birthday and easter is His like deathday, so it's His life backwards? don't know if this is too obvious to annotate
dannyno
  • 124. dannyno | 13/03/2023
I guess a big question is how literally we should be taking what might have just been a cool phrase pressed into service.
Alan
  • 125. Alan | 06/05/2023
"Pau, Nay, Loron, more fire than blood,

Swimming in praise, the great man hurries to the confluence.

He will refuse entry to the magpies,

Pampon and Durrance will confine them. "

Nostredamus prediction about Napoleon?

Hope this helps?

Cheers
Alan
  • 126. Alan | 10/05/2023
Dannyno,

Your earlier comment about Penzance Greenmarket/Place. I'm from Pz. We have The Greenmarket and Market Place. They're right next to each other.

Mark was known to visit Pz not infrequently as he would visit Anthony Frost. Business or as afirend too I don't know. We used to see him in what was The Peruvian pub.
Kiva
  • 127. Kiva | 06/07/2023
I always thought the lyric was "A Lorrain" like the french painter, Lorrain.
Which would make sense because of the line "And the Dutch are weeping/
Lusted after French paintings"
Kiva
  • 128. Kiva | 06/07/2023
Also because of that one time he says it in a mock-french accent.
Kiva
  • 129. Kiva | 06/07/2023
The time he says "A Lorrain" in a mock-french accent is right after the line about french paintings.

Well, that's my take on it! Lemme know what you think.

From wikipedia-
"Claude Lorrain (French: [klod lɔ.ʁɛ̃]; born Claude Gellée [ʒəle], called le Lorrain in French; traditionally just Claude in English; c. 1600 – 23 November 1682) was a French painter, draughtsman and etcher of the Baroque era. He spent most of his life in Italy, and is one of the earliest important artists, apart from his contemporaries in Dutch Golden Age painting, to concentrate on landscape painting. His landscapes are usually turned into the more prestigious genre of history paintings by the addition of a few small figures, typically representing a scene from the Bible or classical mythology."
dannyno
  • 130. dannyno | 14/07/2023
The more the merrier.

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned in that connection is this quote from Churchill (source: https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-157/france-and-the-french-cross-of-lorraine-lion-of-britain/):

Winston Churchill and Charles de Gaulle are considered by some to be the greatest figures of the 20th century, largely for their roles in World War II. For allies facing a common foe, however, their relationship was less than ideal. They quarreled frequently, sometimes harboring deep-seated resentment toward one another for months. Referring to the symbol of the Free French, General Spears, envoy to France, remarked, in a comment often attributed to Churchill, “the heaviest cross I have to bear is the Cross of Lorraine.” This succinctly summarized Churchill’s feelings.


Cross of Lorraine, aka Cross of Anjou:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Lorraine
dannyno
  • 131. dannyno | 14/07/2023
Trouble is, we can't be certain that's the right sound...
dannyno
  • 132. dannyno | 14/07/2023
An interesting link between Claude Lorrain and Winston Churchill is that the Capability Brown-landscaped grounds of Blenheim Palace, Churchill's birthplace, were inspired by the works of Lorrain.

See: /https://www.thefrenchmag.com/attachment/300101/
dannyno
  • 133. dannyno | 14/07/2023
Lorrain's Adoration of the Golden Calf is in Manchester Art Gallery:

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-adoration-of-the-golden-calf-205452

https://d3d00swyhr67nd.cloudfront.net/w1200h1200/collection/GMIII/MCAG/GMIII_MCAG_1981_3-001.jpg
Cam Bennett
  • 134. Cam Bennett | 14/12/2023
I can't agree that this is Richard Burton the actor, surely it is the polyglot "explorer" Richard Francis Burton, translator of the Kama Sutra and A Thousand And One Nights, speaker of at least 26 languages, who converted to Islam and made a pilgrimage to Mecca, co-founder of the Anthropological Society Of London, writer of over 40 books and countless articles, monographs and letters, who would be weeping at the disarray of the Tempo House. Why would MES assign any significance to the emotional response of Mr Elizabeth Taylor, a borderline alcoholic and actor?

Richard Burton the polyglot, could communicate with anyone with his 26 languages, which is fully thematic of Perverted By Language. He was also widely disliked, with this note on his wikipedia page. "As an obituary described: '...he was ill fitted to run in official harness, and he had a Byronic love of shocking people, of telling tales against himself that had no foundation in fact,'[69] Ouida reported 'Men at the FO [Foreign Office] ... used to hint dark horrors about Burton, and certainly justly or unjustly he was disliked, feared and suspected ... not for what he had done, but for what he was believed capable of doing.'"
Portsmouth Bubblejet
  • 135. Portsmouth Bubblejet | 30/12/2023
There's quite a famous building in Nuremberg called 'Tempohaus' (click here for an article with pictures). It was built in the 1920s and is now a school, but the building owes its name to becoming the offices for 'Tempo' paper tissues in the 1970s.

Tempo was a Nuremberg company that was originally owned by two Jewish businessmen, Oskar and Emil Rosenfelder. The firm was then forcibly Aryanised in the 1930s and taken over by Gustav Schickedanz. After 1945, Schickedanz was initially prohibited from carrying on his business by the American occupation authorities due to his Nazi connections, before he was (inevitably and depressingly) rehabilitated.
Kyle Bolan
  • 136. Kyle Bolan | 14/03/2024
I always thought MES was referencing the Public Image song "Solitaire". I would've loved to have heard that.

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