Various Times

Lyrics

(1)

Alright we're going to go back
to 1940
No money
And I live in Berlin
I think I'll join up
Become a camp guard
No war for me
An old Jew's face dripping red

 

I hate the prisoners
I hate the officers
They've no fight
I think I'll join,
The red rose, (2)
Leave Belsen
I'll go to Switzerland

 

Human [race] 
Human [race]
Don't think, ask him
Human [race]
Human [race]
Don't think, ask him

Present :
I don't like them
said Ian (3)
in his black-out threat
I think I'll drop out 
Become a No Man   (4)
And live my rules
But I'm the sort that gets
out of the bath with a dirty face

 

Everyone I meet's the same now
No brains or thought
A good case for the systems we like - we get

Human [race]
Human [race]
Various times
Human [race]
Human [race]

Don't think, ask him

Future:
One nine 80
Black windows
And smokey holes
My head is full of lead
And the beer is so weak
Since they got rid of time around here

 

Dr. Doom (5) 
Fresh from Salem
And the witch trials (6)
The Lathe of Heaven (7)
Time mistaken
Three places at once

Human [race]
Human [race]
Don't think, ask him
Human [race]
Human [race]
Don't think, ask him

Ask him
Ask him

 

Notes

1. Here is a bit of talk from MES. The interview is from 1989, from some sort of Dutch magazine:

Smith says he tried to be narrative in that song, to tell a story. "I remember being very proud of the lyric. It's very simple. Just before writing it, I had heard something from the Shangri-La's, _The Future, The Present, The Past_ or something like that, a horrible song [actually "Past, Present and Future]. (laughing) It made me write this." The song in question is called _Past, Present And Future_ and it isn't that bad really. It resembles _Various Times_ in that the singer announces each verse with "past", "present" and "future". Smith says "Right, we're gonna go back", "present" and "future", I think. I ask him about the chorus, is it "human race"? "Yes, it is. The structure of verse-chorus-verse was pretty unusual in those days. [for a new wave band, I suppose he means] We wanted the chorus to be a vocal noise, it wasn't intended to be understood."

To be honest, I don't think there was ever a period in the history of pop music when "verse-chorus-verse" was uncommon; it is possible that Smith is talking about the Fall rather than a general trend, but if so the remark is inaccurate. The Fall had released five songs at this point: "Psycho Mafia," "Bingo-Master,"  "Repetition," and the A-side of "Various Times," "It's The New Thing." "Repetition" does not have a chorus, but the other four all run verse-chorus-verse. There may have been some sort of micro-trend in "New Wave" that eschewed the structure, especially if we were to disqualify songs that start with the chorus, although this seems like niggling. But it's a pretty common way to write a song, and it has been for quite some time.

According to Smith, in a letter to Ian McColloch (quoted in note 3, and reproduced under More Information), he produced the whistling sound on a Peruvian nose flute (Dan).

^

 

2. Smith probably has the group of non-violent resistors to the Hitler regime in Nazi Germany known as the White Rose, as this quote Dan turned up would indicate:

In this July 1988 MES travelogue for the NME, he refers to "the Red Rose":  "I asked this bloke why there were no historical things in Munich and he kindly showed me around. I asked him where the 1923 Putsch was and he pointed it out and then he took me for a drink in the place where the Red Rose [sic] was, that was the student underground against the Nazis - the same street where the Nazi party was formed strangely enough." 

I initially thought of the Rosicrucians, whose symbology features a red rose upon a cross, upon hearing this lyric (the name is derived from rosae crucis, or "rose cross"). A purported secret society dedicated to the occult and the reformation of humanity, the legend of the Rosicrucians was originally inspired by two anonymous 17th-century manifestoes. Numerous occult societies have claimed to be the true Rosicrucians, right up to our own time. It seems likely Smith has just gotten the name mixed up, though. 

^

3. According to Bagrec on the Fall online forum:

I used to know Julian [Cope] a bit back in the day, (clang!!) and he certainly believed ["Julian said how was the gear" in "Two Steps Back"] was about him- and that the "I don't like them, said Ian" in Various Times, refers to Ian McCulloch- [the singer from Echo and the Bunnymen]- who apparently used to do an impersonation of a racist character.

Both lines date from the days when Cope and McCulloch apparently used to roadie for The Fall....

This may of course be bollox.

From Cope's Head-On:

We played Manchester's Band on the Wall club on Mark Smith's 23rd birthday. It was strange to be
on stage with him in the audience. I still felt that I had loads to prove to him, especially as Mac had
got a name-check on the B-side of the new Fall sing
le.

And, from a letter from MES to McCulloch:


"The song is about objectivity, really, old 'outsider' syndrome. The middle verse is from that chat we had in the van on the way back from Leeds Poly. It is no way derogatory to you. I wrote it 'cos I agreed. Sometimes though on stage I change that verse to insult Penman e.g. WROTE Ian ' + ' His black-out' etc. + nasty things about him!"

Ian Penman is a journalist who wrote for the NME. See More Information below for the text of the letter.

^

4. In the Odyssey, Odysseus tells the cyclops Polyphemus that his name is Outis (often given in English translations as Nemo, the Latin equivalent), which means "No Man." When Odysseus blinds Polyphemus, the punning name aids in his escape:

"Then in his turn from out the cave big Polyphemus answered: 'Friends, Nobody is murdering me by craft...' But answering him in winged words they said: 'If nobody harms you when you are left alone, illness which comes from mighty Zeus you cannot fly. But make your prayer to your father, lord Poseidon.'"

In the blue lyrics book, the capitalization is as I have it here, like a proper name; it seems likely MES had The Odyssey in mind here, as it is a famous passage. Furthermore, Outis has been used as a pseudonym in several well-known instances. See Wikipedia for more (thanks to Dan for this note).

^

 

5. Dr. Doom is a Marvel character-- a supervillain, inventor, sorceror, and leader of the fictional country "Latveria." Dannyno from the Fall Online forum points out this connection between Dr. Doom and the Salem witch trials:

"[The line] is a clear reference to this Marvel Spiderman storyline (1976), starting with issue 41:

Marvel Team-Up #41

in issue 44:
Marvel Team-Up #44 ."

Also Fall-notable, the cover of #43 proclaims "A Past Gone Mad!"

^

6. On the significance of witch trials to the Fall mythos, see K-punk, "Memorex for the Krakens."(K-punk)

^

7. The Lathe of Heaven is a science fiction novel by Ursula K. Le Guin about a man who changes reality every time he dreams.

^

More Information

Various Times: Fall Tracks A-Z

A letter from MES to Ian McCulloch:

 

Comments (38)

dannyno
  • 1. dannyno | 01/07/2014
The Shangri-Las song cited by MES in note 1 is "Past, Present and Future. It's easy to find via Google. eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVMJN0fKJWI
john
  • 2. john | 19/11/2014
i always thought he was saying a human relic (uh).
dannyno
  • 3. dannyno | 30/12/2014
"Red Rose".

Why red, when the White Rose was the name of an actual anti-Nazi movement? Could MES be having a little joke here? A white rose is of course also a symbol of Yorkshire - cf the heraldic rose of the House of York. The red rose, on the other hand, is the heraldic symbol of the House of Lancaster, and so the red rose has become a symbol of Lancashire (see the Wars of the Roses). You can see that this might appeal to MES.
bzfgt
  • 4. bzfgt | 01/01/2015
Also the comic book connection. This strikes me as very comic-booky with the lurid imagery ("an old Jew's face dripping red"), and Dr. Doom is from "Latveria" rather than Latvia, so maybe "Red Rose" is the fictionalized/comic book version of White Rose.
dannyno
  • 5. dannyno | 14/03/2015
In this July 1988 MES travelogue for the NME, he refers to "the Red Rose":
http://thefall.org/gigography/88jul30.html

"I asked this bloke why there were no historical things in Munich and he kindly showed me around. I asked him where the 1923 Putsch was and he pointed it out and then he took me for a drink in the place where the Red Rose was, that was the student underground against the Nazis - the same street where the Nazi party was formed strangely enough."
dannyno
  • 6. dannyno | 28/03/2015
Note 1:
" The interview is apparently from 1989, and purports to be from Sounds:"

No, I think you've misread the link. The interview seems to have been for a Dutch magazine. The piece at the link merely begins with a quote from a Sounds article.
dannyno
  • 7. dannyno | 21/05/2017

"I think I'll drop out
Become a no-man"


This "no man" concept - could it be linked to the pseudonymical "Outis"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outis

Goes back to Odysseus, see also Joyce's Ulysses. But, with Nemo, used to disguise identity by artists etc. Possibly fits in the context.
bzfgt
  • 8. bzfgt (link) | 27/05/2017
Dan, definitely the Outis/Nemo thing, I cannot believe I never noted that. It's what most people would think of, I think. It seems likely it was in the background.
dannyno
  • 9. dannyno | 16/12/2018
On the Mighty Fall Facebook page today, a contributor asked about literary references in Fall songs. Una Baines responded with:


Lathe of Heaven Ursula le guin
bzfgt
  • 10. bzfgt (link) | 19/01/2019
Yeah we knew that but good to have
Dave Rosser
  • 11. Dave Rosser | 06/10/2019
Every lyric transcription including yours has it:

"Everyone I meet's the same now, No brains or thought"

but I'm almost certain it's actually:

"Everyone, I mean to say now, no brains or thought." It's very clear to my ears.

I'm so ooooold I bought this single in 1978! Excellent site - I've bookmarked to come back to.
Chris Fahey
  • 12. Chris Fahey | 09/10/2019
The “racist cyclops” character has precedent: the “Cyclops” chapter of Joyce’s Ulysses features a racist ranting one-eyed drunk at a bar.
bzfgt
  • 13. bzfgt (link) | 19/10/2019
Dave, I swear I hear the 't'

Chris, good one...
Spam Java
  • 15. Spam Java | 06/12/2019
Further to (3) - From J. Cope, Head-On, 2000.

We played Manchester's Band on the Wall club on Mark Smith's 23rd birthday. It was strange to be
on stage with him in the audience. I still felt that I had loads to prove to him, especially as Mac had
got a name-check on the B-side of the new Fall sing
le.
dannyno
  • 16. dannyno | 11/01/2020
Comment #15. Interesting. MES's 23rd birthday was 5 March 1980.

I am yet to find documentation of a Teardrop Explodes gig at Band on the Wall on that date. It would be good to find it.
dannyno
  • 17. dannyno | 03/02/2020
Marvel Team-Up covers:

#41:

#41

#42:

#42

#43:

#43

#44:

#44

#45:

#45

For more info see the Marvel wiki pages starting here: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Marvel_Team-Up_Vol_1_41
dannyno
  • 18. dannyno | 03/02/2020
And by the way, the Marvel character Scarlet Witch has the power to use "hexes":

https://x-men.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Witch

and for a list of "manifestations" of this power in the Marvel canon see: https://uncannyxmen.net/characters/scarlet-witch/page/0/12
Adrian Peters
  • 19. Adrian Peters | 04/03/2020
Never mind the interpretation bollocks this is Fall at their very best.Thank you.
bzfgt
  • 20. bzfgt (link) | 20/03/2020
Yep
MARCO
  • 21. MARCO | 04/06/2020
I always liked past present and future,i think its a fantastic song.
dannyno
  • 22. dannyno | 13/08/2020
From a letter to Ian McCulloch, dated 13 September 1978

https://bid.omegaauctions.co.uk/images/lot/8268/82680_0.jpg


The song is about objectivity, really, old 'outsider' syndrome. The middle verse is from that chat we had in the van on the way back from Leeds Poly. It is no way derogatory to you. I wrote it 'cos I agreed. Sometimes though on stage I change that verse to insult Penman e.g. WROTE Ian ' + ' His black-out' etc. + nasty things about him!


The Leeds Poly bit would be the gig of 20th June. Penman is of course the music journalist Ian Penman.
dannyno
  • 23. dannyno | 19/08/2020
In the same letter, MES says he played a Peruvian nose flute on this song. It's quite prominent in the mix once you know it's there and not whistling. Must have been one lying around in the studio.
westpier
  • 24. westpier | 16/12/2020
Always wondered about that 'Red Rose' line as it struck me as odd. I even had search for Nazi organisations called that but there didn't appear to be any. So I thought maybe MES made it up about a group who were the antithesis of the White Rose but why would he go to neutral Switzerland? Maybe just Mark being awkward, perverse or it just scanned better! The fact he mentioned 'Red Rose' in an interview rather than 'white' strikes me as typical MES.
Ken
  • 25. Ken | 22/01/2021
Hi.

Re: "Everyone I meet's the same now"

The blue lyrics book has this as "Every One-Eye thinks the same now".

I don't hear "thinks" at all but "One-Eye" looks (no pun intended!) pretty conclusive proof of the cyclops theory.

Fantastic website by the way - I loved The Fall back in the early 80s but rarely had a clue what they were on about so this is an absolute treasure trove of info.
Ken
  • 26. Ken | 22/01/2021
PS I found my way here today because I heard a song on the radio this morning which immediately brought Various Times to mind.

Design by Gustaf.

Is it just me?
dannyno
  • 27. dannyno | 15/02/2021
comment #25. Unfortunately the Blue book cannot be trusted; the texts therein often depart substantially from what can be heard clearly, which means we cannot rely on it for lines we cannot hear clearly.
dannyno
  • 28. dannyno | 15/02/2021
.. which doesn't mean "one eye" is wrong, just that the Blue book cannot be assumed to be definitive.
Ken
  • 29. Ken | 22/02/2021
Comment#27. I take the point and agree "one-eye" may not be the definitive lyric. But I think the fact that one-eye is in the blue book shows it must have been in his thoughts at some stage so it supports the idea of a cyclops reference in the song.

I listened to it again the other day and it could even be "Every one-eye I meets the same now ..." but hard to be sure because of MES' habit at that time, especially live, to stretch out his some of his words with "ah" at the start/end.
dannyno
  • 30. dannyno | 03/07/2021
Comment #29. Well, again, we don't think all the lyrics in the Blue book (or the Orange book come to that) were transcribed or typed up by MES himself.

But always worth exploring different hearings of course.
john
  • 31. john | 21/11/2021
Like my namesake above, I think it's 'Human relic-uh'.
maltodextrin
  • 32. maltodextrin | 23/07/2022
Regarding the opening line, the 1972 hit "Troglodyte (Cave Man)" by Jimmy Castor Bunch opens in a similar way.
"What we're gonna do right here is go back, way back, back into time"
Glyn Bush
  • 33. Glyn Bush | 17/10/2022
I've always thought it was:

I don't like them
Said Ian
In his black out threads

Threads being clothes.

Always one of my favourite Fall songs, heard on John Peel back in the day, probably my first Fall 7".
Amazing site, so much to read and learn.
Ben
  • 34. Ben | 08/11/2022
I know the chorus is simply "a sound" but I can't be alone in only being able to hear it as "a human resistor, a human resistor", right?
gizmoman
  • 35. gizmoman | 20/02/2023
" Smokey holes" Can never hear this without thinking of The Smurf Song, which has the line "(can you) climb through a small keyhole?", The way Father Abraham sings it he sounds like "Smokey Hole" In this song Mark sings it the same way, he pronounces the line Smo - key hole. Since the Smurf song was very popular throughout 1978 it's not impossible that Mark heard the phrase as "smokey hole" and liked it and used it.
Nick_JG
  • 36. Nick_JG (link) | 26/02/2023
"I think I'll drop out
Become a no-man"

Perhaps this is related to Albert Camus' "The Fall" - it's the basic perspective of the narrator, and the general tone of the lyric reminds me somehow of the book.
Nick_JG
  • 37. Nick_JG (link) | 26/02/2023
Compare to:

"This is a story about the present time
The present time as you watch it now.."

"Slow Down Ronnie" by Von Sudenfed
dannyno
  • 38. dannyno | 02/05/2023
Re: comments 15 and 16 about a Teardrop Explodes gig at Band on the Wall on Mark E Smith's 23rd birthday. I have now found a Teardrop Explodes gig at Band on the Wall on Mark E Smith's 22nd birthday - 5 March 1979.

It was reviewed by Mick Middles for Sounds, 24 March 1979:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr-T_7_WwAEqQUl?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

And also by Andy Zero for the April 1979 issue of City Fun:

https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/gfx/24644/HiRes-1.jpg

Tracks from the gig have been released on the Culture Bunker 7LP box set:

[url]https://www.bravado.de/p51-i0602438944903/the-teardrop-explodes/the-culture-bunker/index.html[/ulr]

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